Duck Season in Victoria opened this week and as I should of expect the Veganazis came out in force.
Animal Liberation Victoria stepped up to the plate, commented on the FartBook page and roused the fools to slaughter. It started with their clever campaign pictured below, well cunning not clever because anyone clever would do their homework.
Reoccurring themes were hunters were blood thirsty, it was blood lust, that hunters had small genitals, it's immoral entertainment, un-necessary, hunters are psychopaths just dying to kill small defenceless birds of flight. Then questions were asked, simpleton talk like "what if that was happening to you?"
But really what are some genuine facts.
Lets go through them in order but firstly, what is duck season?
Well despite what some might like to infer or suggest, its not put on to help entertain recreational hunters. Duck Season is a partial cull of a fast moving migratory waterfowl who's numbers have got so great, they're unsustainable. A Duck Season is part of an Integrated Land Management Plan to avoid boom/bust population swings as many of us have seen since the 1960s with emus in regional Australia. Numbers go through the roof to plague proportions then numbers plummet due to starvation. A partial cull at the right time can avoid the un-necessary cruel end.
So the accusations, how do they stack?
1) "Hunters are blood thirsty"
- Well yet to see a blood thirsty hunter. If someone hungers for blood and killing I'd kinda expect them to do so somewhere on some species without waiting for annual Duck Season. Emotive generalisation without proper proof or validity.
2) "...it was blood lust""
- Same as above...Emotive generalisation without proper proof or validity.
3) "...that hunters had small genitals"
- Why is that even brought up? Seems that guns ownership points to unmanly men taking up phallic symbols to compensate for issues with the wedding tackle. Which if it isn't ridiculous already, there's a bunch of recreational hunters who are women wondering how that odd psyche assessment applies to them. Thankfully they think its as weird as weird gets as do most reasonable people. Pretty sure its just an attempt at insulting the person to compensate for lack of facts or valid position.
4) "...it is immoral entertainment"
- Last bit first, Duck Season is a part of an Integrated Land Management Plan to partially cull a very fast, migratory water fowl back to ecologically sustainable numbers. It is not put on to solely allow hunters to kill for fun. Its sustainable management to avoid ecological imbalance. Hunters are just the mechanism to achieve that aim because they're not only effective, they're highly cost effective, they actually pay money to do the job for the government department that helps nature conservation. Unless Veganarchists can talk ducks into not breeding we're in for problems. Baiting doesn't work, trapping will not work. Shooting does.
-Second bit... "immoral". Well again to class something immoral, you're making a moral judgment. You cannot make a moral judgement without citing a moral code or a moral law giver. I have a Christian Worldview and the Bible has no comments at all about hunting and eating meat being an immoral act. If a person can cite the moral grounds I'd be grateful. Now if a person is queezey and cannot stomach it, that's fine. I get that. But you should not translate a stomach upset or nausea with a moral compass.
5) "..un-necessary"
- Well impossible to make that judgement without looking at the source documents that allow a DUCK SEASON to be opened. The Integrated Land Management Plan. Some states haven't had duck season for a while now...because the science and the numbers do not warrant it at present. What do the Victorian authorities say about duck numbers? Well don't ask the activists, they don't know, they haven't asked and they don't care.
6) "hunters are psychopaths just dying to kill small defenceless birds of flight"
- Psychopaths? What, a serious mental health determination with no professionals giving personal mental assessment? Invalid emotional rant...again
Dying to kill small defenceless birds of flight? Ahhh well if one is an avid recreational hunter, then yes they might well be very keen to go get involved in DUCK SEASON. They have forked out good money, its tightly managed and regulated and there's big fines for illegal hunting. You bet those with licences will be keen to get their money's worth within the bag limit.
Now that's probably as deep as you need go, but every now and then someone goes all out dumb a**
One incredible individual for going all out in the dumber than dumber stakes.
This poor lass said, and yep we not only quote, we cut n paste so its exactly her words...
"My understanding is that meat only started being consumed out of pure survival during the ice age as plants obviously didn't grow. We're not in the ice age now and our health stats should be enough cause for concern..."
Now had I thought long and hard about this...if I had seriously thought about it, I would have asked the following...
a) Did all animals go from vegan to omnivore/carnivore?
b) What about lions, cheetahs, dogs, eagles and all other current day predators were they all vegans then with ice age and lack of plant growth they changed?
c) How long does your understanding tell you the said Ice Age go for, because as flawed as Evolution Theory goes its not evolution, its natural selection because timeframe is so short...or if not, what?
But I never got that far. Despite the hundreds of questions that "understanding" causes I never got past one difficult point. If the Ice Age caused a serious survival situation due to "fact" that "plants obviously didn't grow" what did all the omnivores eat? I mean the definite herbivores of today...some birds, cattle, horses, sheep, squirrels, hamsters, guinea pigs, antelopes, deer, goats, giraffes, etc etc. They must have gone meat eating and then switched back and stayed herbivore right up til now yeah? Or...
Yep my question was if "plants obviously didn't grow" what did the animals eat?
Silence was the stern reply. It was at this point I could see valid reasoning in some hunter supporters quoting one of the characters from the film Tropic Thunder "Never go full retard"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6WHBO_Qc-Q
Too late she did.
Never ever mistake "My understanding is that..." for a proven fact or generally accepted normality.
Yep, the Veganarchists will swamp the duck shoot protest thing.
They're not about ecology, sustainable environment, conservation work. Nothing.
They want Animal Liberation, where all animals are untouched by us, where all species come together and hum Koom-by-Yah whilst we all peacefully graze on grass and tree leaves, a beautiful place where the unicorns run free. A strange place where the vegan does not walk everywhere, does not eat only what they grow themselves, or where their clothes shoes, watch, mobile phone, computer don't come from overseas sweat shops and their electricity, lights, power, water, heating all come from fairies.
"Everybody know you never go full retard". Too late for some.
Monday, 23 March 2015
Sunday, 1 February 2015
James Aspey - and issues not tackled when you're silent.
So James Aspey travelled around Australia on a year long vow of silence to promote animal rights.
He goes on the TV magazine show "Sunrise" for his first spoken interview. Not just his first interview but its where he's promised that they'd be the TV Show where he'd break his silence FIRST. Turns out to be a big let down. Why? His credibility is now shown to be shot.
Turns out in that preceding year he broke his silence quite a few times. 5 or 6 times by his own admission. So, when he messes up and speaks does he start again each time? No, then you move ahead to a vow of silence with no "intentional" speaking. Convenient. Turns out he intentionally broke his silence anyway by whispering the name of his then newly acquired girlfriend into her ear. Start again? Nope. Press on he did, because there are schedules to meet, media engagements, no need to unfairly weigh down a stunt with something pesky and invasive like integrity.
So now James is talking again, we know what he's saying but what is of interest is he isn't saying and sadly not being asked? Simple...
Its based on the old sentience thing again. Its a term from philosophy not science. Its a twisted approach that's as twisted as the use of the term Species-ism. Again, this too comes from philosophy.
Their approach is, if you kill a fellow human being its murder, so therefore if you kill an animal it too is murder. The contention is if killing a human is murder then killing any animal is murder because if you separate the rules based on species then you're a specie-ist, a filthy rotten low down morally debauched Species-ist. However funny thing happened on the way to the debate via the jungle. The lion kills the antelope, ahh but that's not murder, that's nature...the rules of abhorrent moral transgression ONLY apply when its human to animal. When its non human animal killing non human animal the moral law is strangely not applicable. When its non human animal killing human, it also doesn't apply. Now when you see the selected application of (their) moral laws, which is based on the basis of one's species, you can easily bring up the very weird and contradictory nature of the application of the term "Species-ism" & "Species-ist". Hmmm, who's the Species-ist now???You know you're probably going to find a someone instantly adopting a vow silence on the matter.
I had an exchange with a capital "V" Vegan recently, but it wasn't James. What's a capital "V" Vegan? Lower case vegans are normal every day people going about their ordinary every day lives who just happen to fuel their body with non animal food products for a range of reasons, but they're not pushing it on others, they're just doing it. Capital "V" Vegans are of the Vegan Cult or Veganarchists. They're animal rights extremists. They can view lower case vegans as cop outs and hopeless moderates.
The thing is the poor dear gives me quite an extensive serve on why eating meat is a disgusting abomination, why it should be opposed and outlawed. Not to mention why such immoral people should hang their heads in shame. Her main point of reference was "Sentience". Again a term from philosophy but her take on it is because an animal has (sentience) awareness, can feel pleasure and pain it therefore has "inferred rights".
Interesting. "Inferred" not definite, just suggested or inferred. Here we have a moral law without the moral law giver. I could have pressed her down the "who's the moral law giver" path and we would have heard the loud crack of a logic implosion. We could be cruel and inspect her life and assess her moral score card because if she's the moral law giver, she must be morally correct in every way or she has a dilemma. I didn't, I gently pressed on "Sentience".
I said what if the animal was somehow, with science that maybe doesn't currently exist kept in stasis from conception, some sort of suspended animation, so it grows without sentience, emotion, awareness, emotions...would that be preferable? I could see the shock in her face rising but I went on to say that in such a fanciful example, the creature might therefore go from conception to birth to plate with no awareness whatsoever, no feelings, no emotions, would that be ok?
Well lets just say she rejected the notion & emotionally replied for quite a few minutes and it was hard for her not to pop a blood vessel at a guess. She was not happy at that futuristic suggestion at all. Yes she used words like disgusting, abhorrent and immoral.
When she concluded & calmed somewhat I calmly asked, "Can I ask you one more question please?" She said yes. I asked "It seems unrelated but when you look at the underlying morality you apply to animal rights owed due to sentience do you support or oppose abortion & is your chosen position free of species-ism"
She had quite the stunned look on her face, I guess she smelt a trap and so she should. In the brief moments she was collecting herself I added "I understand the desire for a woman to have full rights over her body and I'm fine with that but do her rights over ride those of the already begun life that's effectively in stasis developing, without sentience? I say this because many people are now agreeing life begins at conception, not birth"
She was flat out processing this and it caused some dilemma. I wasn't suggesting an unborn child without sentience should therefore be ok as food along with a tomato, rice or pasta. Nor was I thinking anyone in a coma is ok for a BBQ either just because they have no awareness, emotion or feeling. I was using her notion of sentience to show her notion of Species-ism was false, wrong and misleading.
If she was pro abortion then it was ok to end a life of a human if the older human's decides for whatever reason but morally wrong to eat a beef sausage or pork ribs. A little odd & strangely "Species-ist" if the moral rules apply to a sheep, cow or pig but not to a (unborn but very alive) human even if the human is currently un-sentient.
If she was anti abortion then she has the dilemma of why oppose abortion if sentience is not present yet wouldn't support the futuristic idea of a fully non sentient cow, sheep or pig?
Somehow, which ever way she goes she's got a sizable dilemma, a confronting truth she cannot dismiss once she sees it.
She originally says meat eaters are immoral Species-ist because we apply rules to protect humans from murder but not animals. Yet she too is "Species-ist" by applying different rules solely on the basis of Species. Seems if were all honest, we're all Species-ist & if I were to favour any species, why would I not favour my own. Not 100% sure how the sentient being known as an antelope feels about the moral laws not applying to the lion behind them tripping them up. Someone needs to speak up for the voiceless antelope being murder by the lion, whilst Fervent Animal Rights Activists are being very species-ist stacking pressure on meat eating humans only and not other natural predators.
For the record she was not humiliated in front of her friends or anyone else for that matter. I calmly said, "When you're playing with what you think are ethics or morals you have to realise that with humans there will always be uncomfortable loose ends. You better challenge your thinking long, long before you confront others with a principle you wish to enforce or you can find things like truth very confronting".
For the record, abortions happen for a wide range of reasons. Some of them are to save the mother's life from certain death, some its to save her socially and a myriad of other reasons, some valid some not.
My aim was not to have a Pro-Life/Pro-Choice debate, but to challenge the fact that sentience seems to only favour the animal and not equally favour the human. That as a result of that fact her premise was actually flawed and she was actually a species-ist. Once she saw, rather reluctantly she was Species-ist & sentience isn't solid grounds either we could probably move onto the "inferred rights", who invented them, when were they devised, who handed them down to capital "V" vegans. I think she saw the contradiction and dilemma of her argument. It was double crossing her the more she spoke. I think she soon worked out it was more than just flawed, it was totally wrong. Having another conversation is something I'd very much like but looks like that's never going to happen. Having shown "Species-ism" for what it is I wonder should I have just gone after the dilemma and contradiction of "sentience" instead. I think no second chances of another conversation were ever going to be likely.
I think as a result of the discussion, whenever terms like sentience, sentient beings, specie-ist or species-ism come up she'll probably go on a vow of silence herself. Sadly morning TV magazine shows are never going to put grist through the mill properly. It would be nice though for some media group to show James Aspey some interest and ask him the harder questions...even if he goes silent for another year, but we know he's never gone a whole year in the first place...EVER.
He goes on the TV magazine show "Sunrise" for his first spoken interview. Not just his first interview but its where he's promised that they'd be the TV Show where he'd break his silence FIRST. Turns out to be a big let down. Why? His credibility is now shown to be shot.
Turns out in that preceding year he broke his silence quite a few times. 5 or 6 times by his own admission. So, when he messes up and speaks does he start again each time? No, then you move ahead to a vow of silence with no "intentional" speaking. Convenient. Turns out he intentionally broke his silence anyway by whispering the name of his then newly acquired girlfriend into her ear. Start again? Nope. Press on he did, because there are schedules to meet, media engagements, no need to unfairly weigh down a stunt with something pesky and invasive like integrity.
So now James is talking again, we know what he's saying but what is of interest is he isn't saying and sadly not being asked? Simple...
Its based on the old sentience thing again. Its a term from philosophy not science. Its a twisted approach that's as twisted as the use of the term Species-ism. Again, this too comes from philosophy.
Their approach is, if you kill a fellow human being its murder, so therefore if you kill an animal it too is murder. The contention is if killing a human is murder then killing any animal is murder because if you separate the rules based on species then you're a specie-ist, a filthy rotten low down morally debauched Species-ist. However funny thing happened on the way to the debate via the jungle. The lion kills the antelope, ahh but that's not murder, that's nature...the rules of abhorrent moral transgression ONLY apply when its human to animal. When its non human animal killing non human animal the moral law is strangely not applicable. When its non human animal killing human, it also doesn't apply. Now when you see the selected application of (their) moral laws, which is based on the basis of one's species, you can easily bring up the very weird and contradictory nature of the application of the term "Species-ism" & "Species-ist". Hmmm, who's the Species-ist now???You know you're probably going to find a someone instantly adopting a vow silence on the matter.
I had an exchange with a capital "V" Vegan recently, but it wasn't James. What's a capital "V" Vegan? Lower case vegans are normal every day people going about their ordinary every day lives who just happen to fuel their body with non animal food products for a range of reasons, but they're not pushing it on others, they're just doing it. Capital "V" Vegans are of the Vegan Cult or Veganarchists. They're animal rights extremists. They can view lower case vegans as cop outs and hopeless moderates.
The thing is the poor dear gives me quite an extensive serve on why eating meat is a disgusting abomination, why it should be opposed and outlawed. Not to mention why such immoral people should hang their heads in shame. Her main point of reference was "Sentience". Again a term from philosophy but her take on it is because an animal has (sentience) awareness, can feel pleasure and pain it therefore has "inferred rights".
Interesting. "Inferred" not definite, just suggested or inferred. Here we have a moral law without the moral law giver. I could have pressed her down the "who's the moral law giver" path and we would have heard the loud crack of a logic implosion. We could be cruel and inspect her life and assess her moral score card because if she's the moral law giver, she must be morally correct in every way or she has a dilemma. I didn't, I gently pressed on "Sentience".
I said what if the animal was somehow, with science that maybe doesn't currently exist kept in stasis from conception, some sort of suspended animation, so it grows without sentience, emotion, awareness, emotions...would that be preferable? I could see the shock in her face rising but I went on to say that in such a fanciful example, the creature might therefore go from conception to birth to plate with no awareness whatsoever, no feelings, no emotions, would that be ok?
Well lets just say she rejected the notion & emotionally replied for quite a few minutes and it was hard for her not to pop a blood vessel at a guess. She was not happy at that futuristic suggestion at all. Yes she used words like disgusting, abhorrent and immoral.
When she concluded & calmed somewhat I calmly asked, "Can I ask you one more question please?" She said yes. I asked "It seems unrelated but when you look at the underlying morality you apply to animal rights owed due to sentience do you support or oppose abortion & is your chosen position free of species-ism"
She had quite the stunned look on her face, I guess she smelt a trap and so she should. In the brief moments she was collecting herself I added "I understand the desire for a woman to have full rights over her body and I'm fine with that but do her rights over ride those of the already begun life that's effectively in stasis developing, without sentience? I say this because many people are now agreeing life begins at conception, not birth"
She was flat out processing this and it caused some dilemma. I wasn't suggesting an unborn child without sentience should therefore be ok as food along with a tomato, rice or pasta. Nor was I thinking anyone in a coma is ok for a BBQ either just because they have no awareness, emotion or feeling. I was using her notion of sentience to show her notion of Species-ism was false, wrong and misleading.
If she was pro abortion then it was ok to end a life of a human if the older human's decides for whatever reason but morally wrong to eat a beef sausage or pork ribs. A little odd & strangely "Species-ist" if the moral rules apply to a sheep, cow or pig but not to a (unborn but very alive) human even if the human is currently un-sentient.
If she was anti abortion then she has the dilemma of why oppose abortion if sentience is not present yet wouldn't support the futuristic idea of a fully non sentient cow, sheep or pig?
Somehow, which ever way she goes she's got a sizable dilemma, a confronting truth she cannot dismiss once she sees it.
She originally says meat eaters are immoral Species-ist because we apply rules to protect humans from murder but not animals. Yet she too is "Species-ist" by applying different rules solely on the basis of Species. Seems if were all honest, we're all Species-ist & if I were to favour any species, why would I not favour my own. Not 100% sure how the sentient being known as an antelope feels about the moral laws not applying to the lion behind them tripping them up. Someone needs to speak up for the voiceless antelope being murder by the lion, whilst Fervent Animal Rights Activists are being very species-ist stacking pressure on meat eating humans only and not other natural predators.
For the record she was not humiliated in front of her friends or anyone else for that matter. I calmly said, "When you're playing with what you think are ethics or morals you have to realise that with humans there will always be uncomfortable loose ends. You better challenge your thinking long, long before you confront others with a principle you wish to enforce or you can find things like truth very confronting".
For the record, abortions happen for a wide range of reasons. Some of them are to save the mother's life from certain death, some its to save her socially and a myriad of other reasons, some valid some not.
My aim was not to have a Pro-Life/Pro-Choice debate, but to challenge the fact that sentience seems to only favour the animal and not equally favour the human. That as a result of that fact her premise was actually flawed and she was actually a species-ist. Once she saw, rather reluctantly she was Species-ist & sentience isn't solid grounds either we could probably move onto the "inferred rights", who invented them, when were they devised, who handed them down to capital "V" vegans. I think she saw the contradiction and dilemma of her argument. It was double crossing her the more she spoke. I think she soon worked out it was more than just flawed, it was totally wrong. Having another conversation is something I'd very much like but looks like that's never going to happen. Having shown "Species-ism" for what it is I wonder should I have just gone after the dilemma and contradiction of "sentience" instead. I think no second chances of another conversation were ever going to be likely.
I think as a result of the discussion, whenever terms like sentience, sentient beings, specie-ist or species-ism come up she'll probably go on a vow of silence herself. Sadly morning TV magazine shows are never going to put grist through the mill properly. It would be nice though for some media group to show James Aspey some interest and ask him the harder questions...even if he goes silent for another year, but we know he's never gone a whole year in the first place...EVER.
Thursday, 29 January 2015
The 365 Day Vow of Silence That Wasn't 365 Days At All
If you've not heard of James Aspey, he's an Australian Animal Rights Activist who took a vow of silence for 365 days to "raise awareness for animals and peace over violence". Nice motherhood statement but for me it more closely resembles a simplistic thought balloon whish almost looks deliberately vague. In the video cited he actually says its to raise awareness of Animal Rights. Not animal welfare...Animal Rights. He even openly claims its about Animal Liberation. Hmmm, he's already off to a bad start, but here's the worry, it'll fool an awful lot of people.
So how did he go on his 365 days? Well I saw his spot on Sunrise and noticed a lot of questions they should have asked weren't. It was treat as a positive puff piece and whilst he probably was really happy with the exposure, with no decent journalistic rigour applied it kind of stands up as high as the cutesy animal in the lame human interest slot at the end of the news just after the weather.
It turns out, he didn't go the full 365 days. No need to take my word for it either. He's put up his own youtube spot on it, it was a radio interview where he came clean. Not sure if he intentionally set out to make an on air confession or whether he's a poor sod who got caught out on air and revealed himself as a bit of a goose.
You decide for yourself, listen to it while its still on youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3UP4lOAHDw
Now couple of things to note, there's not so much vision as there is audio in this youtube piece however of note, the first image you see is a caricature of a guy with his arm around a pig with the slogan Vegan Extremist. This straight away sets him up for everything he is and some of it is not good. His is a world view where choice has to be limited to what he has decided is just, fair and moral and its not mainstream. His foundation for the moral decision is founded in...well he doesn't go that far and it should have been just a small part of the interview to not just understand what he believes, but what the basis for it is and what is the origin of judgement call he makes in what are "truth claims" without any foundation at all.
OK some folk are going to read this and there'll be the usual "Haters gunna hate" spiel...I'll be a hater, and/or intolerant, unfair, immoral and maybe accused of self righteous pontificating. That'll be pretty funny...if I agree totally with James I'll be tolerant, fair, moral level headed yada yada yada.
But if I have a different view, oops a hater. Of course telling people they're unjust, immoral, murderers, unethical etc for eating a chop, sausage, steak or drinking milk, THAT is not intolerance or "hating". Ooooooh nooooo, course not.
Ok his interview was interesting, very distracting is the devolved Australian version of a Woodstock accent which some folk call neo-hippy. "A tiger snake umm like kinda crawled over me or whatever..." But that and the other bro, man, dude language I'll try and put aside.
Apparently he woke up and saw friends and said "What's up bro..." and that happened 5 or 6 times.
Plus the time he whispered the name of his newly acquired girlfriend's name in her ear.
So sadly on Sunrise he wasn't so forthcoming. He wasn't the "Voiceless 365 except for 6 or 7 times guy", nope on Sunrise he hadn't spoken for 365 days and Sunrise was the place of his first words for a year...except that's a lie.
The guy who says he kept a vow of silence for 365 days, actually didn't. Was he fair dinkum? I think he was serious about the cause, think he was serious about the attention, very serious about the media interest, the cultivation of the persona he was developing but if he was fair dinkum, then if you blow it, you have to start again or you didn't actually stay silent for 365 days. How long was his longest stretch without speaking, we don't know. Might have been 10 months could have been 50 days we really don't know. Fact is we can only go by his word and his word only and going by what he told Sunrise he wasn't truthful comparing it to what he (more truthfully) told Steve & Basil & 6PR 882 News Talk.
Now if we're talking about a moral and ethical issue as I think he may suggest, he's kinda on thin ice at best when it comes to morals and ethics. My honest assessment at first glance...EPIC FAIL.
In response to humanely slaughtered comments he states "In my head I'm going, humanely slaughtered? Dude there's no such thing" and he goes on you cannot compassionately kill something inferring that all slaughter is by default cruel, malicious and vile. Who said its a job to aspire to, to enjoy immensely? It is for many of us a job, a thing we do and it neither incites joy or hate nor any emotion as any job does. Its not a hobby, sport, joyful pursuit, its just a thing we do, part of life. Now if you want to be vegan, go for it. Whatever floats your boat, fuel your body how ever you see fit for whatever valid or mad reasons you wish to choose. If I ever qualified as intolerant I guess I'd be forcing people to give up veganism and pushing for it to be outlawed and make milk/egg/meat eating compulsory. That would be intolerant. They want us to stop animal products in the food chain. If they're telling meat eaters they must stop, and their basis cannot be challenged closely because that's hate and intolerance. What the???
Now apparently the real foundations for the vegan position isn't quite made so well. He has made facebook comments about we don't "need" to eat animal based food products.
Let's address it as a "needs" issue. We don't need power windows in cars, but they exist so should we ban them?
We don't need tattoos, do we ensure people don't have them? I mean there may be health issues or objectionable material themed into tattoos that we don't "need" at all. Do we stop them altogether, ban them? No of course not. If we took his don't need to angle all art would cease and maybe Sunrise and all the other shallow mind numbing media vehicles would be gone too. I'm reminded he's stated "
Sometimes you just need to go to Bali and not come back until you have 2 sleeves!" - pointing two his very tattooed arms. So we don't "need" to eat animal based food products, but sometimes we do "need" to get go to a 3rd world Asian country and get both arms fully inked. Ahhh how's that "need" angle even float in a real world? Want tattoos? Go for it, its your skin, your money and in some cases your health and definitely YOUR choice. Want to eat meat? Go for it, or not. No force feeding here at all and animals have always been a food source. EPIC FAIL.
I enjoyed his FaceBook comment/question - "Eating meat is manly??? You're joking, right?"
If I said that, yes I would be joking, so too would Sam Kegovich or Richie Benaud. Eating meat is not a question of manliness or manhood...otherwise women would not eat animal food products. Nice try, not a very good try but effort is noticed to be outweighing cogent thought. Lets slow it right down...its not about manly, its just, well its just food. Honest.
I note the real big one. Sorry I get the feeling he may not fully understand Speciesism as I think many people do not. His comment is/was...
"Speciesism: The core of the ENTIRE issue, in my opinion. One of the most important things I ever posted!"
Lets look at the core. The vegan contention is if a human kills and eats an animal, milks a cow, collects eggs etc for food it is unfair, transgression of Animal Rights and these violations are a direct result of the horrible actions summed up to be Speciesism.
We should point out sentient beings and also speciesism are philosophy terms, not scientific terms. So the entire debate is based on differing philosophical view points. To the vegan, acts of Speciesism are despicable acts of hate and oppression where one species (human) elevates itself over another species (non human), exploits it, enslaves it, murders it and uses it for its own purposes generally for food and other products.
Here's where it fails.
To the Vegan Activist, the Vegan Extremist, the Animal Rights Extremist, the Animal Liberation Extremist the transgressor, the one's committing "Speciesism" are all humans and only humans.
The lion takes down the antelope, kills its prey, sometimes devouring and swallowing parts of its kill before its actually dead, at times still conscious and aware. The Shark eats the fish, alive because its not humanely slaughtered and processed, its just ripped apart violently and devoured in a frenzy more often than not. No table manners in the wild. The cat catches the mouse, plays with it, eventually eats it...or not. The wattle bird raids the nest of other birds, eating the eggs or killing the live young and eating them. The snake eating insects, lizards and at times even its own young. The wild dogs, pigs, cats or other ferals killing native fauna or farmed animals like sheep or cattle, all natural animal instincts. All survival. All animals doing what animals do naturally but none of them are committing heinous acts of "Speciesism". $3 note odd.
None of those creatures are guilty of murder, violence, killing unjustly or denying another animal its animal rights. No. Only the human is actually a "species-ist". That's akin to saying only one particular race can be racist. Singling out humans and saying they enslave animals, commit violence and murder whilst all other species are ok to kill and eat one another...well if Speciesism is a valid term the Veganarchist Extremist has taken the cake. They are the supreme "speciesist" they apply Speciesism to humans and no other species. How's that work???
Here's where little old meat eater me agrees wholeheartedly with James Aspey.
I too agree with "Speciesism: The core of the ENTIRE issue"
It is the entire issue and the hidden part is these inferred rights that all animals have, presumably all animals except humans have to have an inventor. Who created these rights? Who first postulated that these rights do or should exist because before the birth of this mysteriously un-named law giver there must have been no "rights" inferred or otherwise. Lets explore that Veganarachist. Normal vegans rest easy. You're cool with me, its the cult followers that need torchlight.
You cannot have a moral law without a moral law giver. I do believe in God. I believe I'm a Gentile follower of Jesus Christ, Son of God, the God of the Jews. It seems that according to some, the close examination of perceived contradictions from non believers is not only right, its required to show the pre-decided ridicule the Bible heaps upon itself, yet the same amount of rigour (which is generally not very learned rigour anyway) is never applied to other worldviews with the same fervour. Many Jews & Christians point to this being a subtle pointer as to which is the true God as the others aren't opposed so vigorously.
With Sentient, Speciesism and Speciesists being philosophical terms, a faith or religion is afoot.
Either hidden, or not known by its followers.
But applying any such rigour to the Vegan Cult is the work of haters and we all know intolerant haters are gunna hate.
My faith (which none of you reading have to follow or adhere to) shows eating meat and animal based food is quite ok. Its given as a gift of God. Telling me I'm unjust, immoral and unethical is old news. The Bible says we're all fallen and as a result we fall short of being worthy of Heaven. Old news, I know I'm as bad as any person who's ever walked the earth, we all are. Following my faith is apparently going to be ok, long as I go Vegan which is on the side of justice. Ahhh what the???
Who's the intolerant hater now?
There's vegans who don't eat meat/milk/eggs/etc for whatever reason and its a fuel choice based on their own views. Then there's the Veganarchist Cult followers pushing an agenda which is not consistent with Christian, Jewish, Muslim doctrine. Hey I just picked the big 3. There's others.
So we see the Vegan's "moral laws" but who is their moral law giver?
If there isn't one, then someone's just making stuff up and trying to pass personal preference off as ethically perfect judgement and therefore (here's the important bit) condemning to damnation anyone not of the vegan cult. Tolerance?
If they're true atheist, then its all nature and all is fair cos we're all animals. A true full blood atheist has other dilemmas and contradictions but on face value, you cannot accuse them of being "species-ists"
James clearly feels very strongly about the Animal Liberation, Animal Rights and Species-ism.
Passion however does not make a position fact or actually correct even slightly.
Sadly Sunrise does not have the budget, time or resources to properly flesh out issues underlying the whole Vegan Cult. They also do not have the audience that has an inclination for deeper analysis.
If that were to ever happen James would be like a lame antelope to the lion. He would have been devoured savagely.
Instead he gets a good 15 minutes of fame, more regularly than maybe all of us put together.
Fine by me and I think eventually it'll be better if we see more James Aspey type stunts and gain air time.
Maybe more people will stop, take a deep breath and seriously think for a moment.
I would never ever make a Vegan eat meat, and I sure as hell I'm not going to sit back and eat the organic horse sh*t many vegans are serving up.
So how did he go on his 365 days? Well I saw his spot on Sunrise and noticed a lot of questions they should have asked weren't. It was treat as a positive puff piece and whilst he probably was really happy with the exposure, with no decent journalistic rigour applied it kind of stands up as high as the cutesy animal in the lame human interest slot at the end of the news just after the weather.
It turns out, he didn't go the full 365 days. No need to take my word for it either. He's put up his own youtube spot on it, it was a radio interview where he came clean. Not sure if he intentionally set out to make an on air confession or whether he's a poor sod who got caught out on air and revealed himself as a bit of a goose.
You decide for yourself, listen to it while its still on youtube.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X3UP4lOAHDw
Now couple of things to note, there's not so much vision as there is audio in this youtube piece however of note, the first image you see is a caricature of a guy with his arm around a pig with the slogan Vegan Extremist. This straight away sets him up for everything he is and some of it is not good. His is a world view where choice has to be limited to what he has decided is just, fair and moral and its not mainstream. His foundation for the moral decision is founded in...well he doesn't go that far and it should have been just a small part of the interview to not just understand what he believes, but what the basis for it is and what is the origin of judgement call he makes in what are "truth claims" without any foundation at all.
OK some folk are going to read this and there'll be the usual "Haters gunna hate" spiel...I'll be a hater, and/or intolerant, unfair, immoral and maybe accused of self righteous pontificating. That'll be pretty funny...if I agree totally with James I'll be tolerant, fair, moral level headed yada yada yada.
But if I have a different view, oops a hater. Of course telling people they're unjust, immoral, murderers, unethical etc for eating a chop, sausage, steak or drinking milk, THAT is not intolerance or "hating". Ooooooh nooooo, course not.
Ok his interview was interesting, very distracting is the devolved Australian version of a Woodstock accent which some folk call neo-hippy. "A tiger snake umm like kinda crawled over me or whatever..." But that and the other bro, man, dude language I'll try and put aside.
Apparently he woke up and saw friends and said "What's up bro..." and that happened 5 or 6 times.
Plus the time he whispered the name of his newly acquired girlfriend's name in her ear.
So sadly on Sunrise he wasn't so forthcoming. He wasn't the "Voiceless 365 except for 6 or 7 times guy", nope on Sunrise he hadn't spoken for 365 days and Sunrise was the place of his first words for a year...except that's a lie.
The guy who says he kept a vow of silence for 365 days, actually didn't. Was he fair dinkum? I think he was serious about the cause, think he was serious about the attention, very serious about the media interest, the cultivation of the persona he was developing but if he was fair dinkum, then if you blow it, you have to start again or you didn't actually stay silent for 365 days. How long was his longest stretch without speaking, we don't know. Might have been 10 months could have been 50 days we really don't know. Fact is we can only go by his word and his word only and going by what he told Sunrise he wasn't truthful comparing it to what he (more truthfully) told Steve & Basil & 6PR 882 News Talk.
Now if we're talking about a moral and ethical issue as I think he may suggest, he's kinda on thin ice at best when it comes to morals and ethics. My honest assessment at first glance...EPIC FAIL.
In response to humanely slaughtered comments he states "In my head I'm going, humanely slaughtered? Dude there's no such thing" and he goes on you cannot compassionately kill something inferring that all slaughter is by default cruel, malicious and vile. Who said its a job to aspire to, to enjoy immensely? It is for many of us a job, a thing we do and it neither incites joy or hate nor any emotion as any job does. Its not a hobby, sport, joyful pursuit, its just a thing we do, part of life. Now if you want to be vegan, go for it. Whatever floats your boat, fuel your body how ever you see fit for whatever valid or mad reasons you wish to choose. If I ever qualified as intolerant I guess I'd be forcing people to give up veganism and pushing for it to be outlawed and make milk/egg/meat eating compulsory. That would be intolerant. They want us to stop animal products in the food chain. If they're telling meat eaters they must stop, and their basis cannot be challenged closely because that's hate and intolerance. What the???
Now apparently the real foundations for the vegan position isn't quite made so well. He has made facebook comments about we don't "need" to eat animal based food products.
Let's address it as a "needs" issue. We don't need power windows in cars, but they exist so should we ban them?
We don't need tattoos, do we ensure people don't have them? I mean there may be health issues or objectionable material themed into tattoos that we don't "need" at all. Do we stop them altogether, ban them? No of course not. If we took his don't need to angle all art would cease and maybe Sunrise and all the other shallow mind numbing media vehicles would be gone too. I'm reminded he's stated "
Sometimes you just need to go to Bali and not come back until you have 2 sleeves!" - pointing two his very tattooed arms. So we don't "need" to eat animal based food products, but sometimes we do "need" to get go to a 3rd world Asian country and get both arms fully inked. Ahhh how's that "need" angle even float in a real world? Want tattoos? Go for it, its your skin, your money and in some cases your health and definitely YOUR choice. Want to eat meat? Go for it, or not. No force feeding here at all and animals have always been a food source. EPIC FAIL.
I enjoyed his FaceBook comment/question - "Eating meat is manly??? You're joking, right?"
If I said that, yes I would be joking, so too would Sam Kegovich or Richie Benaud. Eating meat is not a question of manliness or manhood...otherwise women would not eat animal food products. Nice try, not a very good try but effort is noticed to be outweighing cogent thought. Lets slow it right down...its not about manly, its just, well its just food. Honest.
I note the real big one. Sorry I get the feeling he may not fully understand Speciesism as I think many people do not. His comment is/was...
"Speciesism: The core of the ENTIRE issue, in my opinion. One of the most important things I ever posted!"
Lets look at the core. The vegan contention is if a human kills and eats an animal, milks a cow, collects eggs etc for food it is unfair, transgression of Animal Rights and these violations are a direct result of the horrible actions summed up to be Speciesism.
We should point out sentient beings and also speciesism are philosophy terms, not scientific terms. So the entire debate is based on differing philosophical view points. To the vegan, acts of Speciesism are despicable acts of hate and oppression where one species (human) elevates itself over another species (non human), exploits it, enslaves it, murders it and uses it for its own purposes generally for food and other products.
Here's where it fails.
To the Vegan Activist, the Vegan Extremist, the Animal Rights Extremist, the Animal Liberation Extremist the transgressor, the one's committing "Speciesism" are all humans and only humans.
The lion takes down the antelope, kills its prey, sometimes devouring and swallowing parts of its kill before its actually dead, at times still conscious and aware. The Shark eats the fish, alive because its not humanely slaughtered and processed, its just ripped apart violently and devoured in a frenzy more often than not. No table manners in the wild. The cat catches the mouse, plays with it, eventually eats it...or not. The wattle bird raids the nest of other birds, eating the eggs or killing the live young and eating them. The snake eating insects, lizards and at times even its own young. The wild dogs, pigs, cats or other ferals killing native fauna or farmed animals like sheep or cattle, all natural animal instincts. All survival. All animals doing what animals do naturally but none of them are committing heinous acts of "Speciesism". $3 note odd.
None of those creatures are guilty of murder, violence, killing unjustly or denying another animal its animal rights. No. Only the human is actually a "species-ist". That's akin to saying only one particular race can be racist. Singling out humans and saying they enslave animals, commit violence and murder whilst all other species are ok to kill and eat one another...well if Speciesism is a valid term the Veganarchist Extremist has taken the cake. They are the supreme "speciesist" they apply Speciesism to humans and no other species. How's that work???
Here's where little old meat eater me agrees wholeheartedly with James Aspey.
I too agree with "Speciesism: The core of the ENTIRE issue"
It is the entire issue and the hidden part is these inferred rights that all animals have, presumably all animals except humans have to have an inventor. Who created these rights? Who first postulated that these rights do or should exist because before the birth of this mysteriously un-named law giver there must have been no "rights" inferred or otherwise. Lets explore that Veganarachist. Normal vegans rest easy. You're cool with me, its the cult followers that need torchlight.
You cannot have a moral law without a moral law giver. I do believe in God. I believe I'm a Gentile follower of Jesus Christ, Son of God, the God of the Jews. It seems that according to some, the close examination of perceived contradictions from non believers is not only right, its required to show the pre-decided ridicule the Bible heaps upon itself, yet the same amount of rigour (which is generally not very learned rigour anyway) is never applied to other worldviews with the same fervour. Many Jews & Christians point to this being a subtle pointer as to which is the true God as the others aren't opposed so vigorously.
With Sentient, Speciesism and Speciesists being philosophical terms, a faith or religion is afoot.
Either hidden, or not known by its followers.
But applying any such rigour to the Vegan Cult is the work of haters and we all know intolerant haters are gunna hate.
My faith (which none of you reading have to follow or adhere to) shows eating meat and animal based food is quite ok. Its given as a gift of God. Telling me I'm unjust, immoral and unethical is old news. The Bible says we're all fallen and as a result we fall short of being worthy of Heaven. Old news, I know I'm as bad as any person who's ever walked the earth, we all are. Following my faith is apparently going to be ok, long as I go Vegan which is on the side of justice. Ahhh what the???
Who's the intolerant hater now?
There's vegans who don't eat meat/milk/eggs/etc for whatever reason and its a fuel choice based on their own views. Then there's the Veganarchist Cult followers pushing an agenda which is not consistent with Christian, Jewish, Muslim doctrine. Hey I just picked the big 3. There's others.
So we see the Vegan's "moral laws" but who is their moral law giver?
If there isn't one, then someone's just making stuff up and trying to pass personal preference off as ethically perfect judgement and therefore (here's the important bit) condemning to damnation anyone not of the vegan cult. Tolerance?
If they're true atheist, then its all nature and all is fair cos we're all animals. A true full blood atheist has other dilemmas and contradictions but on face value, you cannot accuse them of being "species-ists"
James clearly feels very strongly about the Animal Liberation, Animal Rights and Species-ism.
Passion however does not make a position fact or actually correct even slightly.
Sadly Sunrise does not have the budget, time or resources to properly flesh out issues underlying the whole Vegan Cult. They also do not have the audience that has an inclination for deeper analysis.
If that were to ever happen James would be like a lame antelope to the lion. He would have been devoured savagely.
Instead he gets a good 15 minutes of fame, more regularly than maybe all of us put together.
Fine by me and I think eventually it'll be better if we see more James Aspey type stunts and gain air time.
Maybe more people will stop, take a deep breath and seriously think for a moment.
I would never ever make a Vegan eat meat, and I sure as hell I'm not going to sit back and eat the organic horse sh*t many vegans are serving up.
Test it all, don't be fooled by the fools.
Thursday, 4 December 2014
Animal Welfare or Animal Rights Part II
Well to and fro go the Internet volleys. As said before, much like shouting at the footy. Feels good, means little and changes nothing mostly But imagine my surprise when a prominent noisy scrub bird keeps bleating on about AW on a well known pro Live Export page but then comes undone.
Yes came about when a number of positive AW triumphs were listed and no "well done" or "That's great" just the old silence, indifference and dismissiveness.
It was then I wondered I wonder what Noisy Scrub Bird (NSB) being the devout anti Live Export fan would say if further pressed. So I gently pressed for comment and eventually others also made the link.
There's Animal Welfare.
Then there's Animal Liberation, Animal Rights and there's the newly concocted descriptor "Animal Protection" which NSB ascribed to Animals Australia, indeed so too do Animals Australia.
NSB then did us the favour and linked all the three together in one succinct sentence and made the comment that they are not "PRIMARILY AW FOCUSED".
Ahhh what the???
Possibly the best and funniest faux pas this year.
Then I thought I'd go over to NSB's own Facebook page, where all the quotes are in plain public view.
Here's the first doozey-
Not actually Anti Live Export, actually anti everything Animal Farming.
2] “I don’t believe in extending the life of one species intent
on destroying the planet, at the expense of other innocent species, so yes – I would
rather prefer your death to your research given that your, and all medical
research will help extend the life span of humans in developed countries – the consumers”
Yes came about when a number of positive AW triumphs were listed and no "well done" or "That's great" just the old silence, indifference and dismissiveness.
It was then I wondered I wonder what Noisy Scrub Bird (NSB) being the devout anti Live Export fan would say if further pressed. So I gently pressed for comment and eventually others also made the link.
There's Animal Welfare.
Then there's Animal Liberation, Animal Rights and there's the newly concocted descriptor "Animal Protection" which NSB ascribed to Animals Australia, indeed so too do Animals Australia.
NSB then did us the favour and linked all the three together in one succinct sentence and made the comment that they are not "PRIMARILY AW FOCUSED".
Ahhh what the???
Possibly the best and funniest faux pas this year.
Then I thought I'd go over to NSB's own Facebook page, where all the quotes are in plain public view.
Here's the first doozey-
1] “I don’t excuse any use of animals, I don’t agree with
giving people the impression that there is an ethical way to eat animals, eggs
or dairy – there isn’t.
What I am specifically talking about is what we do in the interim period between now and generations down the track when we live in a vegan utopia…”
So there's no way to humanely eat meat, egg or dairy? So not only is NSB totally against ALL animal farming, NSB is also against all animal products and looking for the social movement to which NSB belongs to deliver a Vegan Utopia. Ahhh ok. What I am specifically talking about is what we do in the interim period between now and generations down the track when we live in a vegan utopia…”
Not actually Anti Live Export, actually anti everything Animal Farming.
Ahh yes, NSB would rather see you a human die than an animal die. Isn't that "Species-ist" ? I think its time to buy shares in a tin foil company because NSB & other scrub birds are probably wanting to buy tonnes of the stuff to make hats. Don't miss the point, rather see humans die.
3] “…and if you had actually read my post you might have got to
the part that said “ That doesn’t mean
we don’t carry on our vegan outreach and advocating for an end to the use of
all animals” To do so WOULD be welfarist”
Vegan outreach? Double what the?? Yes the Vegan Philosophy is very aggressive in nature in pushing for vegan utopia and converting all and sundry. Animal Welfare is fine as a vehicle for the real aim, but to aim solely for Animal Welfare and not push for veganism everywhere and end Animal Farming is welfarist as if that a derogatory term and an utterly immoral position.
4] “I don’t support welfarism and I don’t don’t consider myself
radical, nor do I consider the dominant paradigm to be welfarism. By far the
dominant paradigm is abolition. My take on what constitutes a radical vegan
(mentioned in the intial post) is the point of this entire thread.”
Abolition huh? Well there you have it, we certainly do have to test those Animal Welfare activists to see who is the genuine Animal Welfare supporter and who is the Animal Rights/Animal Welfare/Animal Protection group/activist intent on abolition of ALL animal farming and meat industries and doubly intent on vegan world domination...not Animal Welfare cos well Animal Welfare is not the primary focus. Welfarism is not good enough because there is no way of humane use of meat, eggs and dairy.
Now the reason you need to test is because there's actually a fair few folk who are genuine AW advocates and AW Improvers. They shouldn't be belted about the head with logic, they probably only need it put in front of them and they'll see, understand and get it.
Its the Veganarchists you need to test for and teach the good Animal Welfare Advocates the tools to test also because at least they'll help improve AW.
Now the reason you need to test is because there's actually a fair few folk who are genuine AW advocates and AW Improvers. They shouldn't be belted about the head with logic, they probably only need it put in front of them and they'll see, understand and get it.
Its the Veganarchists you need to test for and teach the good Animal Welfare Advocates the tools to test also because at least they'll help improve AW.
SO WHAT ARE THE IMPLICATIONS?
Well the wash up is this, there's very possibly a change in the wind and its not a back lash or the result of a pro-meat industry social movement. I think its quite likely a return of common sense and folk notice some threads of deception annoyingly sticking out and causing people to stop & serious think and question. Of recent note is the possibly milestone court case for damages caused to producers from the incredibly daft Live Export Ban in Australia. Stephen Smith was in the cabinet at the time, he was the Foreign Minister. He's now out of parliament but he's in the news for distancing himself from the decision and how he couldn't do or say much. The Rudd/Gillard/Rudd government was definitely one of the most toxic and dysfunctional tenures at the helm of the Australian government.
Implications are...
Implications are...
- If you're careful you'll easily detect Animal Rights, Animal Liberation and Animal Protection groups and people who are cloaked up as pretend Animal Welfare groups/advocates. That's good
- If things are corrected its possible that genuine, honest and reasonable AW improvers could be falsely labelled as extremists. Its going to be difficult at times, but they have to be separated from the extremists because AW improvers are part of the solution and those who favour animal farming abolition are a problem greater than improved AW.
Are you up for adding legitimacy to that stale bake of nutcake?
Tuesday, 25 November 2014
Animal Welfare or Animal Rights?
One significant difficulty we will all face whilst engaging with people to show openness and help encourage understanding is we will encounter people concerned with animal welfare and the people concerned with animal rights.
Animal welfare folk might be industry participants right across to urban observers. I'm not only fine with them, I'm keen to encourage them to get involved to express and learn more. THEY are part of the solution.
Animal Rights Activists...that's a whole different kettle of fish. They are in favour of assigning personage to animals and therefore all animal farming is also opposed. Responses among them varies when it comes to companion animals...apparently we don't call them "pets" as that's "slave-like".
Generally there are some who like to avoid all discussion around pets or companion animals. If it gets a little confusing, be grateful you're not an Animal Rights Activist as it get positively messy and weird with the overwhelming paradox they're actually living with.
The Animal Rights Activist has adopted & evolved to cleverly hide under the AW cloak.
AR is a social movement that is based in philosophy...not professional standards, legal standards or food regulations. This philosophy will most likely fall flat, fail and flitter away, but for a long time prior to that happening, AR will do an enormous amount of damage to producers, our country, our trade partners, our legal possessions/rights and our collective future. I don't see their final demise being anytime soon, it will come, not a moment too soon but its just as likely to last many years or many more generations. Its greatest tool for longevity is cloaking. Remaining the "grey man" of logic, shape shifting and avoiding full disclosure and critical analysis which would most likely be its imploding downfall.
We do ourselves a huge disservice when we engage with AW proponents without working out if they're genuine AW improvers or followers of flawed philosophy of various Animal Rights cults. Anyone capable of lying, pretence, stealth, deceit and supporting criminal activity is most likely an ARA and not overly AW oriented or concerned.
We can all be tricked and rounded up. I have.
Seen more than a few slip through the net and gain a position of legitimacy they do not deserve and generally because as soon as things become clearer, they ramp up AW angle, using the emotive words that condemn animal production. Apparently eating a steak, sausage or chop is slavery, torture, murder and we should drop all contact with animals unless it's rescue or medical attention.
If someone's a dreadlocked unemployed hippy full of dope and welfare cheques I'm not phased if they want to engage with the view to improve AW. Strangely they're more likely to be a friend of my livelihood in a legitimate function of food production than a well dressed, articulate, high paid executive of Animals Australia, PETA etc.
Here in embolden and enlarged red we have a simple equation.
Pro AW = Good
Pro AR = Not Good (for anyone except those gouging donations)
So if we were to ask "Animal Welfare or Animal Rights?" you have 4 possible answers.
1) Animal Welfare
2) Animal Rights
3) Both
4) Neither
If you can find someone claiming neither...well I don't know, I'd have to think long and hard on what a person so bloody vacant is actually about. 1 & 2 pretty obvious what they are.
Those that answer "Both" might just be trying to be clever or maybe elusive. Doesn't really matter because if they answer both you can safely say you have an ardent follower of the very bogus Animal Rights Philosophy.
I'm sure this will get added to. Slight suggestion, the last post was Animal Extremist Language Explained might be worth reading or skimming through. Its way, way longer but not just cos I'm very long winded and take the scenic route to a point, it also has a little more depth.
Hmm long winded or has more depth?
"Both"
So how did this epiphany arrive? I noticed that in Australian Live Export the ESCAS compliance was found to be 98%. That's a huge improvement in AW. A ship with a consignment of livestock left Australia and arrived in its overseas port with ZERO transit deaths and no ESCAS breaches, leakages or reports. Two monumental Animal Welfare triumphs, deliver by the country which is the world leader in the trade. 108 other countries are exporting live, Australia is light years in front and the improvements are there.
Animal Rights Activists were noticeably silent, indifferent or dismissive.
Surely these gains, well triumphs are cause for celebration.
For someone genuinely concerned with Animal Welfare yes.
For someone genuinely concerned with the Animal Rights cult, no.
Last time I said on a internet forum that I support Animal Welfare "within the framework that acknowledges eating meat and producing animal based products is actually ok and not the slightest bit immoral or unethical", well lets just say you could pick the ARAs from the AW improvers. It was stark, like day and night. Then like thief in the night, they darted for the shadows and refitted their cloak.
Animal welfare folk might be industry participants right across to urban observers. I'm not only fine with them, I'm keen to encourage them to get involved to express and learn more. THEY are part of the solution.
Animal Rights Activists...that's a whole different kettle of fish. They are in favour of assigning personage to animals and therefore all animal farming is also opposed. Responses among them varies when it comes to companion animals...apparently we don't call them "pets" as that's "slave-like".
Generally there are some who like to avoid all discussion around pets or companion animals. If it gets a little confusing, be grateful you're not an Animal Rights Activist as it get positively messy and weird with the overwhelming paradox they're actually living with.
The Animal Rights Activist has adopted & evolved to cleverly hide under the AW cloak.
AR is a social movement that is based in philosophy...not professional standards, legal standards or food regulations. This philosophy will most likely fall flat, fail and flitter away, but for a long time prior to that happening, AR will do an enormous amount of damage to producers, our country, our trade partners, our legal possessions/rights and our collective future. I don't see their final demise being anytime soon, it will come, not a moment too soon but its just as likely to last many years or many more generations. Its greatest tool for longevity is cloaking. Remaining the "grey man" of logic, shape shifting and avoiding full disclosure and critical analysis which would most likely be its imploding downfall.
We do ourselves a huge disservice when we engage with AW proponents without working out if they're genuine AW improvers or followers of flawed philosophy of various Animal Rights cults. Anyone capable of lying, pretence, stealth, deceit and supporting criminal activity is most likely an ARA and not overly AW oriented or concerned.
We can all be tricked and rounded up. I have.
Seen more than a few slip through the net and gain a position of legitimacy they do not deserve and generally because as soon as things become clearer, they ramp up AW angle, using the emotive words that condemn animal production. Apparently eating a steak, sausage or chop is slavery, torture, murder and we should drop all contact with animals unless it's rescue or medical attention.
If someone's a dreadlocked unemployed hippy full of dope and welfare cheques I'm not phased if they want to engage with the view to improve AW. Strangely they're more likely to be a friend of my livelihood in a legitimate function of food production than a well dressed, articulate, high paid executive of Animals Australia, PETA etc.
Here in embolden and enlarged red we have a simple equation.
Pro AW = Good
Pro AR = Not Good (for anyone except those gouging donations)
So if we were to ask "Animal Welfare or Animal Rights?" you have 4 possible answers.
1) Animal Welfare
2) Animal Rights
3) Both
4) Neither
If you can find someone claiming neither...well I don't know, I'd have to think long and hard on what a person so bloody vacant is actually about. 1 & 2 pretty obvious what they are.
Those that answer "Both" might just be trying to be clever or maybe elusive. Doesn't really matter because if they answer both you can safely say you have an ardent follower of the very bogus Animal Rights Philosophy.
I'm sure this will get added to. Slight suggestion, the last post was Animal Extremist Language Explained might be worth reading or skimming through. Its way, way longer but not just cos I'm very long winded and take the scenic route to a point, it also has a little more depth.
Hmm long winded or has more depth?
"Both"
So how did this epiphany arrive? I noticed that in Australian Live Export the ESCAS compliance was found to be 98%. That's a huge improvement in AW. A ship with a consignment of livestock left Australia and arrived in its overseas port with ZERO transit deaths and no ESCAS breaches, leakages or reports. Two monumental Animal Welfare triumphs, deliver by the country which is the world leader in the trade. 108 other countries are exporting live, Australia is light years in front and the improvements are there.
Animal Rights Activists were noticeably silent, indifferent or dismissive.
Surely these gains, well triumphs are cause for celebration.
For someone genuinely concerned with Animal Welfare yes.
For someone genuinely concerned with the Animal Rights cult, no.
Last time I said on a internet forum that I support Animal Welfare "within the framework that acknowledges eating meat and producing animal based products is actually ok and not the slightest bit immoral or unethical", well lets just say you could pick the ARAs from the AW improvers. It was stark, like day and night. Then like thief in the night, they darted for the shadows and refitted their cloak.
Test things you're told and test for those things that may be hidden.
Don't be fooled by those keen to deceive you and rob you.
Monday, 17 November 2014
Animal Extremist Language Explained
Its emotive, passionate and highly charged. If its true that a good orator has the power to rouse fools to slaughter then the irony is some good orators have the power to rouse fool to all kinds of actions to oppose food production.
Recently (November 2014) we saw the report of a private contractor at a feedlot suffering severe financial hardship when his truck was burnt to the ground by criminal extremists. Lesser offence was the graffiti on a wall. However this is not a one off. Other offences at other times in quiet little old W.A. include the cutting of a stock semi trailer's brake lines. Super gluing up padlocks, slashing of tyres and damage to tractor totalling $30,000. That's the very short list. The longer list includes turning off of water to stock, damage to feed and feed systems but we should never overlook the forgotten criminal acts. It is a crime to trespass, to install recording devices and that too is a short list.
Its sad when social media again had a polarised view of it all. One side condemned the criminal actions right across the spectrum from criminal trespass to criminal damage. The anti Live Export set were split between silence, indifference and the dismissive folks claiming it was a set up to frame activists. Those activist groups that did condemn it used very careful language. Some carefully condemned it with guarded comments stating it was "not what we're about". Ahhh but no across the board issuing of statements directing activists that "if it ain't legal it ain't on...don't do it". Stopped short, well short. Activist reaction was one of careful positioning to be seen not to encourage or support the action yet no condemnation without ANY qualification.
So lets look and consider Extremist Language and how its twisted nature can inspire some activist to become extremists and cross big fat thick unmistakable lines in the sands of plain simple common decency. Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you the often used Extremist Fallacies of Extremist Orators.
Extremist Fallacies
1] "Live export is murder"
Well no its not. Murder is the defined very clearly as the criminal and illegal taking of another person's life. Doesn't include mosquitoes, cocker spaniels or wild buffalo. Murder is confined to human beings and even then taking of human life is very prescriptive in legislation. There's also man slaughter etc. Live export is the legal and lawful activity of transporting livestock. It doesn't equate to murder. In fact one recent shipment of Live Export made the entire trip mortality free, that is none, zip, zero animals died in transit.
2] "Farmers have blood on their hands, they are greedy, selfish monsters preying on innocent animals for no other reason than money"
Yeah this one is easily challenged too. Farmers are pursuing a legal and lawful income. At present there are no broad acre food producers who operate as such as altruistic unpaid volunteers. As nice as it is to think everyone is a volunteer and unpaid for everything they do, its a fallacy and a twisted emotional angle that should be challenged every time its peddled. The extremist does not want people to consider that what they're saying infers all people working for a living are doing so for purely greedy, selfish gain. Its not just a fallacy, its an absurd fallacy. As to whether or not someone gains pleasure or joy from the activity (yes some people love their jobs) the inference is farmers, all farmers, do not care about the job, the animals under their stewardship only the filthy lucre. Its a big call, and one would have to canvas every producer in the country to back the claim. Its wrong on so many deeper and varied levels, but I think once the "Utterly Absurd Gong" sounds you don't need a mountain of other reasonings. The well known PeTA group has paid to have companion animals, not looked after and rehomed but killed. Animals Australia has a multi million dollar annual budget, yet not one dollar is spent on Animal Rescue or Treatment here or overseas. Blood, hands, hypocrisy?
3] "Live Export is inherently cruel torture..."
The Australian Live Export Trade is the world leader in World's Best Practice, the only country with a supply chain assurance scheme and has achieved a staggering 98% compliance level. That's a compliance level that soars well above the Australian Tax System, Australian traffic laws and even the pet industry in Australia. When you hit a meteoric high of 98% compliance, its closer to inherently devoid of cruelty than inherently cruel. Second point, cruelty is the deliberate, wilful and malicious act of causing damage and suffering or at least avoiding efforts to reduce or eliminate suffering. ESCAS 98% compliance causes us to apply a tick to the absurdity test to the extremist claim. Torture is of course the deliberate act of pain, suffering and damage to either gain something from the victim or for the pure purpose of being cruel for whatever psychotic pleasure. That's not to say a psychotic thug cannot work in the industry, that's quite possible. However for it to be "inherently cruel torture" all the industry or a majority would have to be a fan of cruel torture. Yet to be proven. There have certainly been untrained people conducting very cruel acts upon animals, some due to lack of skill, training and ability and/or cultural reasons. With Australia being the only industry player investing in training and supply of better equipment its little wonder, although not perfect, they have reached 98% compliance since ESCAS came in. Worth mentioning, Animal Liberation groups have not dropped a cent into overseas markets to improve Animal Welfare, not in training, skill upgrades, handling awareness or equipment supply and training. Not their job apparently, theirs must be to gather footage of breaches, report breaches but not improve conditions to reduce breaches. When you notice their role is a reporting role and their language is not improve Animal Welfare but "Shut the trade" their role is to clear reporting breaches to close the trade. That's TRADE ABOLITION not improve animal welfare.
4] "Live Export is Immoral"
Yeah...no its not. Not at all. Very absurd fallacy. Some folk in favour of the Live Export Trade can find the replies to this claim a little uncomfortable for different reasons. The challenging reply to this, well we've hit that nail here before but we'll go the brief recap. Its uncomfortable for some because calling it immoral is a truth claim which has no truth unless it has truth running from its foundation to the tip of the claim. There are pro Live Export folk who don't want it challenged because it goes too close to being "religious". However its actually not possible to remove religious view or philosophy from that or any other truth claim citing morals or immorality. If you look at it, look at the claim and the basis the person making the claim makes it from and that's it, deal done.
Its the claim of the extremist, so get them to show their worldview/religion/philosophy & you can leave your religious view/s quietly hidden where ever you store them. There's no threat. Its their claim, test theirs, not yours.
So here's how it works. You cannot have a moral judgement without Moral Laws without a Moral Lawgiver. Warning once you get this far, it's already getting uncomfortable for them because its already begun to unravel. If you're vigilant you'll soon after observe it becoming an extremely uncomfortable Absurd Fallacy when it does peel open and is laid bare. Expect to see dust trails and Houdini acts from your beloved extremist or not nice language
Look at the biggest Abrahamic religions, Judaism and Christianity...nothing in Old or New Testament, which is the Word of their Moral Law Giver to say Live Export or eating meat is immoral. Ahhh nothing at all. Flip over to Islam, again nothing in the Quran or underlying Hadiths about Live Export or the eating meat being in contravention of their Moral Laws either.
Morals by whom? By the extremist? If that's the case we're looking at Moral Relativism which unravels real quick, its not morals, its my view is right, your view is right and if they're completely and diametrically opposed and cannot be reconciled, they're both right. Now you see the Absurd Fallacy, the good old "moral bluff". Once the Moral Judgement comes from a person, they are replacing God and claiming to be Moral Judge. Absurdity Box well ticked.
And for the atheist its even easier. If you believe in God, you're a theist. Believe there's no God you're atheist and everything is a product of nature, chance and the strongest & fittest slowly rising to the top. For them we humans have adapted to survive better than other species and a human feedlotting sheep is nothing more than a highly evolved example of one species eating another to stay alive. For the atheist, there is no moral law giver, its dog eat dog if one chooses but hopefully where ever they are on a given moral/immoral spectrum they'll be sticking within the law of the land.
5] The chilled/frozen trade can completely replace the Live Export trade, create Australian jobs, provide greater profits for producers and eliminate cruelty.
Sweeping motherhood statement or generalised thought bubble without basis? For some its very much both. I think if domestic slaughter and processing is such a huge profit earner, get some skin in the game. If Animal Welfare is such a big deal, contact your Superannuation Fund and see what their ethical investment position is. Or contact one of Ethical Investment based Super Funds and lobby them to build, own and operate a abattoir and processing facility either on their own or in partnership with an industry player to service the supposedly burgeoning chilled/frozen trade. If the returns are good and Animal Welfare is assured its a sure fire winner on every level. Get some skin in the game, put your money where your mouth is. Save the world, don't talk about. Make the changes yourself and those who oppose your ideals will quickly come on board with you, support you and loudly & proudly thank you for it. Lead the way, lead the charge. Your local Ethical Investment Super Fund will research it. No doubt they'll find that there's many abattoirs that rely heavily on 475 visas, some have season down turns and no quick & easy getting hundreds of meat workers to relocate to the Pilbara, Kimberly or remote Northern Territory. Lets face, you can't stop live trade completely and the following week start pouring concrete pads for slaughterhouses the next week. Like the short Labor introduced LE Ban some years ago, there will be a devastating toll on Animal Welfare. Absurd Fallacy alert, those pushing for change to chilled, claiming it generates the income and extra jobs will not ever put skin in the game. They want others to change the things they very clearly don't understand.
6] Farmers and other producers need to be stopped
Stopped? From doing what. Producers do not export. Exporters do. Put down the Absurd Fallacy and get it right. Producers respond to the market...here's a hint to help extremists understand the business model just that little bit better. Farmers, station owners and operators are "PRIMARY PRODUCERS" they produce the primary product, some of it goes to feedlotters, some goes to saleyards etc. Pretty rare these days to go directly from paddock to gangplank.
It should be pointed out in slow speech via a simple parallel. Mining is also PRIMARY PRODUCTION. It'd be great to not export minerals of any kind and have them delivered to a manufacturing industry (Secondary or Tertiary Production) and make all consumer goods here, providing heaps of domestic employment and generate real wealth onshore. Like the meat industry, it cannot happen because we're a victim of national economic success...our labour costs are such we cannot compete with overseas competition. We can produce the PRIMARY PRODUCT easily and cheaply but we cannot compete on the SECONDARY or TERTIARY PROCESSING LEVEL. Hence the customers got wise and they import the raw product and value add overseas at a much smaller cost. I suspect you'd have to pay slaughtermen and other meat workers around $6 to $8 a day for it work and replace the whole trade. Isn't going to happen and I wouldn't be so much of a brute to suggest it.
ESCAS Compliance is 98% & there's no ESCAS programme for other raw materials going overseas. Are our minerals making weapons ? We don't know. Does our exported wool and cotton make military uniforms? We don't know. Nice try - put down the Absurd Fallacy.
So you cannot eat a sheep/cow/pig/goat/insert whatever species because they are a sentient being. If they have inferred rights (they don't) and you can't export them then it goes to reason you can kill them and eat them. More loss of inferred rights apparently (which don't exist).
Sentient Being is a term from philosophy, not science. No scientific field has put together a sentient being list. For the really curious, go look here http://biology.tutorvista.com/organism/kingdom-animalia.html and you'll see from Kingdom down to species there is no sentient being box to tick.
Its from Philosophy and the ARAs that understand that probably won't want you to know that.
Sentient being has dangers for the ARA. Check here to see why http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sentient
Yes even the lowly rat is a sentient being apparently. Not on the list of sentient beings who's inferred rights are being defended by the way. Cockroach...it has awareness, its sentient. Termites, flies, mosquitos, maggots, mice, leeches, ticks...all possess the characteristics of awareness. Their inferred rights are not defended, no one is wanting to be the advocates for those sentient beings. An ARA group might do a poster or social media campaign with the picture of a steer, claim his name is Barry and mention his sad eyes and his long lost parents and how he'll soon be killed...send in your donation.
They don't find a filthy rat covered in mud and faeces, take a photo of him gnawing on another dead rat, give him a nice noble human name like Michael and ask you to respect his inferred rights (which he doesn't have) and play on your emotions to donate...or maybe rehome him at your place where he can live out his days in peace and harmony.
Funny that.
Rats, ticks, fleas, spiders, maggots, flies...all have awareness but they don't count.
Termites, pest exterminator comes round knocks the top of a nest, pours in a chemical, it goes to the upper chamber housing the queen, kills her and all her workers and other castes. She lays around 2000 eggs a day, they're all dead. They have awareness.
Wasn't long before the "sentient being" had to have the definition refined by ARAs to better suit the cause. The inferred rights don't exist. The term "sentient being" was invented by a human, the inferred rights were too.
You need to be very careful lest you have a serious accident and fall into a serious coma, or be placed into one by medical staff. You are no longer aware. You have no awareness. Or you maybe on life support with no consciousness or awareness. You are effective not sentient. You have no inferred rights. You are a tomato as far as rights go. You can be killed. Ah but wait, apparently you have the "prospect" and the "possibility" of sentience so its not cut and dried.
Really? So dear ARA you're against abortion and actually even contraception, they have awareness to an extent and very much have prospect and possibility of being sentient beings.
You see the unravelling. Hopelessly Absurd Fallacy.
8] Animal rights are paramount.
Ahh no they're not. Animal rights is a product of philosophy, not science. Sentient being palava is a product of philosophy not science. When someone talks to you about Animal Welfare, be quick to question them gently to ascertain whether they're coming genuinely from an Animal Welfare perspective or an Animal Rights perspective.
Animal Welfare is easy. Reduce the suffering and stress of an animal. If the animal is going into Live Export, Domestic Slaughter it doesn't matter. Animal Welfare is paramount, not Animal Rights.
Animal Welfare existed long before the term become a common phrase in our language. Amongst primary producers you were either a good stockman or a poor stockman. Your stockmanship was a huge badge of honour. Someone noted as a really good stockman was a person all about good animal welfare right up until slaughter and processing. We had constantly improving Animal Welfare stretching back generations. The advent of the Bugle style stock yards well preceded the term Animal Welfare. Low stress stock handling techniques were starting long before the term AW.
Animal Rights on the other hand is a product of philosophy, not really anything to do directly with Animal Welfare and its not uncommon for AR groups or advocates to cloak up and use AW as a tool to achieve Animal Rights. For better description of Animal Rights go here... http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_rights_movement
Of special not is the paragraph below...
"The animal rights movement, sometimes called the animal liberation movement, animal personhood, or animal advocacy movement, is a social movement which seeks an end to the rigid moral and legal distinction drawn between human and non-human animals, an end to the status of animals as property, and an end to their use in the research, food, clothing, and entertainment industries.
It is one of the few examples of a social movement that was created, and is to a large extent sustained academically, by philosophers"
Animal Rights Activists (ARAs) have commonly used Animal Welfare issues to further the Animal Rights philosophy. To ARAs Animal Welfare is a tool to use to gain an advantage for Animal Rights not to improve the lot for an animal. We've seen ARAs team up with meat processing unions to oppose Live Export. It won't be banned or extinguished, but if it were Meat Worker Unions and ARAs would promptly part company and become mortal enemies. For both, uniting serves a purpose for now.
Don't be fooled. Animal Welfare and Animal Rights are two distinctly different things.
Animal Rights wants all use of animals for meat and other products banned. They use AW as the tool to achieve it.
Here's a simple test.
A ship loaded with a consignment of live sheep leaves an Australian Port, arrives at its overseas destination with ZERO, repeat, ZERO transit deaths. Mortality rate ZERO, repeat ZERO. Great AW outcome, but wait there's more....much. much more. That consignment had ZERO, repeat ZERO ESCAS breaches/leakage or reports. A utterly monumental Animal Welfare Triumph...but ZERO, repeat ZERO heralding of the great AW triumph. Why?
Well may you ask. We're still looking but to date we have found none of the so called advocacy groups mention it and herald the AW triumph. That is to date, ZERO, repeat ZERO mention or celebration of it. Why?
Because they're not Animal Welfare groups. They're Animal Liberation groups that run either overtly or covertly with the philosophy that Animals are people with personage not to be used for food or anything else.
Exporters and producers celebrate the huge AW triumph. Ironically they're more focused on improving Animal Welfare than ARAs.
Those in favour of Animal Welfare are either actively involved in improvements or drop coin into efforts to improve the AW.
ARAs do not get involved with directly helping the improvement of Animal Welfare nor drop on cent into improving AW outcomes. Their money goes into media campaigns to further the philosophy's aim, stopping all animal farming and production.
Yes, the skilled and trained worker loading trucks or ships has greater AW credentials than the ARA groups. ARA's have lost out so much credibility and legitimacy its little wonder we have extremists burning trucks and other appalling criminal activity. Lucky for the extremist, when you're from an Animal Rights Philosophy you can also adopt bogus moral reasons to break laws. Thankfully the courts are not swayed by that bull dust.
Recently (November 2014) we saw the report of a private contractor at a feedlot suffering severe financial hardship when his truck was burnt to the ground by criminal extremists. Lesser offence was the graffiti on a wall. However this is not a one off. Other offences at other times in quiet little old W.A. include the cutting of a stock semi trailer's brake lines. Super gluing up padlocks, slashing of tyres and damage to tractor totalling $30,000. That's the very short list. The longer list includes turning off of water to stock, damage to feed and feed systems but we should never overlook the forgotten criminal acts. It is a crime to trespass, to install recording devices and that too is a short list.
Its sad when social media again had a polarised view of it all. One side condemned the criminal actions right across the spectrum from criminal trespass to criminal damage. The anti Live Export set were split between silence, indifference and the dismissive folks claiming it was a set up to frame activists. Those activist groups that did condemn it used very careful language. Some carefully condemned it with guarded comments stating it was "not what we're about". Ahhh but no across the board issuing of statements directing activists that "if it ain't legal it ain't on...don't do it". Stopped short, well short. Activist reaction was one of careful positioning to be seen not to encourage or support the action yet no condemnation without ANY qualification.
So lets look and consider Extremist Language and how its twisted nature can inspire some activist to become extremists and cross big fat thick unmistakable lines in the sands of plain simple common decency. Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you the often used Extremist Fallacies of Extremist Orators.
Extremist Fallacies
1] "Live export is murder"
Well no its not. Murder is the defined very clearly as the criminal and illegal taking of another person's life. Doesn't include mosquitoes, cocker spaniels or wild buffalo. Murder is confined to human beings and even then taking of human life is very prescriptive in legislation. There's also man slaughter etc. Live export is the legal and lawful activity of transporting livestock. It doesn't equate to murder. In fact one recent shipment of Live Export made the entire trip mortality free, that is none, zip, zero animals died in transit.
2] "Farmers have blood on their hands, they are greedy, selfish monsters preying on innocent animals for no other reason than money"
Yeah this one is easily challenged too. Farmers are pursuing a legal and lawful income. At present there are no broad acre food producers who operate as such as altruistic unpaid volunteers. As nice as it is to think everyone is a volunteer and unpaid for everything they do, its a fallacy and a twisted emotional angle that should be challenged every time its peddled. The extremist does not want people to consider that what they're saying infers all people working for a living are doing so for purely greedy, selfish gain. Its not just a fallacy, its an absurd fallacy. As to whether or not someone gains pleasure or joy from the activity (yes some people love their jobs) the inference is farmers, all farmers, do not care about the job, the animals under their stewardship only the filthy lucre. Its a big call, and one would have to canvas every producer in the country to back the claim. Its wrong on so many deeper and varied levels, but I think once the "Utterly Absurd Gong" sounds you don't need a mountain of other reasonings. The well known PeTA group has paid to have companion animals, not looked after and rehomed but killed. Animals Australia has a multi million dollar annual budget, yet not one dollar is spent on Animal Rescue or Treatment here or overseas. Blood, hands, hypocrisy?
3] "Live Export is inherently cruel torture..."
The Australian Live Export Trade is the world leader in World's Best Practice, the only country with a supply chain assurance scheme and has achieved a staggering 98% compliance level. That's a compliance level that soars well above the Australian Tax System, Australian traffic laws and even the pet industry in Australia. When you hit a meteoric high of 98% compliance, its closer to inherently devoid of cruelty than inherently cruel. Second point, cruelty is the deliberate, wilful and malicious act of causing damage and suffering or at least avoiding efforts to reduce or eliminate suffering. ESCAS 98% compliance causes us to apply a tick to the absurdity test to the extremist claim. Torture is of course the deliberate act of pain, suffering and damage to either gain something from the victim or for the pure purpose of being cruel for whatever psychotic pleasure. That's not to say a psychotic thug cannot work in the industry, that's quite possible. However for it to be "inherently cruel torture" all the industry or a majority would have to be a fan of cruel torture. Yet to be proven. There have certainly been untrained people conducting very cruel acts upon animals, some due to lack of skill, training and ability and/or cultural reasons. With Australia being the only industry player investing in training and supply of better equipment its little wonder, although not perfect, they have reached 98% compliance since ESCAS came in. Worth mentioning, Animal Liberation groups have not dropped a cent into overseas markets to improve Animal Welfare, not in training, skill upgrades, handling awareness or equipment supply and training. Not their job apparently, theirs must be to gather footage of breaches, report breaches but not improve conditions to reduce breaches. When you notice their role is a reporting role and their language is not improve Animal Welfare but "Shut the trade" their role is to clear reporting breaches to close the trade. That's TRADE ABOLITION not improve animal welfare.
4] "Live Export is Immoral"
Yeah...no its not. Not at all. Very absurd fallacy. Some folk in favour of the Live Export Trade can find the replies to this claim a little uncomfortable for different reasons. The challenging reply to this, well we've hit that nail here before but we'll go the brief recap. Its uncomfortable for some because calling it immoral is a truth claim which has no truth unless it has truth running from its foundation to the tip of the claim. There are pro Live Export folk who don't want it challenged because it goes too close to being "religious". However its actually not possible to remove religious view or philosophy from that or any other truth claim citing morals or immorality. If you look at it, look at the claim and the basis the person making the claim makes it from and that's it, deal done.
Its the claim of the extremist, so get them to show their worldview/religion/philosophy & you can leave your religious view/s quietly hidden where ever you store them. There's no threat. Its their claim, test theirs, not yours.
So here's how it works. You cannot have a moral judgement without Moral Laws without a Moral Lawgiver. Warning once you get this far, it's already getting uncomfortable for them because its already begun to unravel. If you're vigilant you'll soon after observe it becoming an extremely uncomfortable Absurd Fallacy when it does peel open and is laid bare. Expect to see dust trails and Houdini acts from your beloved extremist or not nice language
Look at the biggest Abrahamic religions, Judaism and Christianity...nothing in Old or New Testament, which is the Word of their Moral Law Giver to say Live Export or eating meat is immoral. Ahhh nothing at all. Flip over to Islam, again nothing in the Quran or underlying Hadiths about Live Export or the eating meat being in contravention of their Moral Laws either.
Morals by whom? By the extremist? If that's the case we're looking at Moral Relativism which unravels real quick, its not morals, its my view is right, your view is right and if they're completely and diametrically opposed and cannot be reconciled, they're both right. Now you see the Absurd Fallacy, the good old "moral bluff". Once the Moral Judgement comes from a person, they are replacing God and claiming to be Moral Judge. Absurdity Box well ticked.
And for the atheist its even easier. If you believe in God, you're a theist. Believe there's no God you're atheist and everything is a product of nature, chance and the strongest & fittest slowly rising to the top. For them we humans have adapted to survive better than other species and a human feedlotting sheep is nothing more than a highly evolved example of one species eating another to stay alive. For the atheist, there is no moral law giver, its dog eat dog if one chooses but hopefully where ever they are on a given moral/immoral spectrum they'll be sticking within the law of the land.
5] The chilled/frozen trade can completely replace the Live Export trade, create Australian jobs, provide greater profits for producers and eliminate cruelty.
Sweeping motherhood statement or generalised thought bubble without basis? For some its very much both. I think if domestic slaughter and processing is such a huge profit earner, get some skin in the game. If Animal Welfare is such a big deal, contact your Superannuation Fund and see what their ethical investment position is. Or contact one of Ethical Investment based Super Funds and lobby them to build, own and operate a abattoir and processing facility either on their own or in partnership with an industry player to service the supposedly burgeoning chilled/frozen trade. If the returns are good and Animal Welfare is assured its a sure fire winner on every level. Get some skin in the game, put your money where your mouth is. Save the world, don't talk about. Make the changes yourself and those who oppose your ideals will quickly come on board with you, support you and loudly & proudly thank you for it. Lead the way, lead the charge. Your local Ethical Investment Super Fund will research it. No doubt they'll find that there's many abattoirs that rely heavily on 475 visas, some have season down turns and no quick & easy getting hundreds of meat workers to relocate to the Pilbara, Kimberly or remote Northern Territory. Lets face, you can't stop live trade completely and the following week start pouring concrete pads for slaughterhouses the next week. Like the short Labor introduced LE Ban some years ago, there will be a devastating toll on Animal Welfare. Absurd Fallacy alert, those pushing for change to chilled, claiming it generates the income and extra jobs will not ever put skin in the game. They want others to change the things they very clearly don't understand.
6] Farmers and other producers need to be stopped
Stopped? From doing what. Producers do not export. Exporters do. Put down the Absurd Fallacy and get it right. Producers respond to the market...here's a hint to help extremists understand the business model just that little bit better. Farmers, station owners and operators are "PRIMARY PRODUCERS" they produce the primary product, some of it goes to feedlotters, some goes to saleyards etc. Pretty rare these days to go directly from paddock to gangplank.
It should be pointed out in slow speech via a simple parallel. Mining is also PRIMARY PRODUCTION. It'd be great to not export minerals of any kind and have them delivered to a manufacturing industry (Secondary or Tertiary Production) and make all consumer goods here, providing heaps of domestic employment and generate real wealth onshore. Like the meat industry, it cannot happen because we're a victim of national economic success...our labour costs are such we cannot compete with overseas competition. We can produce the PRIMARY PRODUCT easily and cheaply but we cannot compete on the SECONDARY or TERTIARY PROCESSING LEVEL. Hence the customers got wise and they import the raw product and value add overseas at a much smaller cost. I suspect you'd have to pay slaughtermen and other meat workers around $6 to $8 a day for it work and replace the whole trade. Isn't going to happen and I wouldn't be so much of a brute to suggest it.
ESCAS Compliance is 98% & there's no ESCAS programme for other raw materials going overseas. Are our minerals making weapons ? We don't know. Does our exported wool and cotton make military uniforms? We don't know. Nice try - put down the Absurd Fallacy.
There's 6 Absurd Fallacies peddled by Extremists. Got some more? Send them in.
We'll crack the shell open and have a good hard look at them.
We'll crack the shell open and have a good hard look at them.
I bet we can hit a dozen real quick.
Wow that didn't take long to get something sent in & funnily enough sent in because of a social media exchange I was having elsewhere. Here goes round 2.
7] Live Export must be stopped because you cannot do that to sentient beings.So you cannot eat a sheep/cow/pig/goat/insert whatever species because they are a sentient being. If they have inferred rights (they don't) and you can't export them then it goes to reason you can kill them and eat them. More loss of inferred rights apparently (which don't exist).
Sentient Being is a term from philosophy, not science. No scientific field has put together a sentient being list. For the really curious, go look here http://biology.tutorvista.com/organism/kingdom-animalia.html and you'll see from Kingdom down to species there is no sentient being box to tick.
Its from Philosophy and the ARAs that understand that probably won't want you to know that.
Sentient being has dangers for the ARA. Check here to see why http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sentient
Yes even the lowly rat is a sentient being apparently. Not on the list of sentient beings who's inferred rights are being defended by the way. Cockroach...it has awareness, its sentient. Termites, flies, mosquitos, maggots, mice, leeches, ticks...all possess the characteristics of awareness. Their inferred rights are not defended, no one is wanting to be the advocates for those sentient beings. An ARA group might do a poster or social media campaign with the picture of a steer, claim his name is Barry and mention his sad eyes and his long lost parents and how he'll soon be killed...send in your donation.
They don't find a filthy rat covered in mud and faeces, take a photo of him gnawing on another dead rat, give him a nice noble human name like Michael and ask you to respect his inferred rights (which he doesn't have) and play on your emotions to donate...or maybe rehome him at your place where he can live out his days in peace and harmony.
Funny that.
Rats, ticks, fleas, spiders, maggots, flies...all have awareness but they don't count.
Termites, pest exterminator comes round knocks the top of a nest, pours in a chemical, it goes to the upper chamber housing the queen, kills her and all her workers and other castes. She lays around 2000 eggs a day, they're all dead. They have awareness.
Wasn't long before the "sentient being" had to have the definition refined by ARAs to better suit the cause. The inferred rights don't exist. The term "sentient being" was invented by a human, the inferred rights were too.
You need to be very careful lest you have a serious accident and fall into a serious coma, or be placed into one by medical staff. You are no longer aware. You have no awareness. Or you maybe on life support with no consciousness or awareness. You are effective not sentient. You have no inferred rights. You are a tomato as far as rights go. You can be killed. Ah but wait, apparently you have the "prospect" and the "possibility" of sentience so its not cut and dried.
Really? So dear ARA you're against abortion and actually even contraception, they have awareness to an extent and very much have prospect and possibility of being sentient beings.
You see the unravelling. Hopelessly Absurd Fallacy.
8] Animal rights are paramount.
Ahh no they're not. Animal rights is a product of philosophy, not science. Sentient being palava is a product of philosophy not science. When someone talks to you about Animal Welfare, be quick to question them gently to ascertain whether they're coming genuinely from an Animal Welfare perspective or an Animal Rights perspective.
Animal Welfare is easy. Reduce the suffering and stress of an animal. If the animal is going into Live Export, Domestic Slaughter it doesn't matter. Animal Welfare is paramount, not Animal Rights.
Animal Welfare existed long before the term become a common phrase in our language. Amongst primary producers you were either a good stockman or a poor stockman. Your stockmanship was a huge badge of honour. Someone noted as a really good stockman was a person all about good animal welfare right up until slaughter and processing. We had constantly improving Animal Welfare stretching back generations. The advent of the Bugle style stock yards well preceded the term Animal Welfare. Low stress stock handling techniques were starting long before the term AW.
Animal Rights on the other hand is a product of philosophy, not really anything to do directly with Animal Welfare and its not uncommon for AR groups or advocates to cloak up and use AW as a tool to achieve Animal Rights. For better description of Animal Rights go here... http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_rights_movement
Of special not is the paragraph below...
"The animal rights movement, sometimes called the animal liberation movement, animal personhood, or animal advocacy movement, is a social movement which seeks an end to the rigid moral and legal distinction drawn between human and non-human animals, an end to the status of animals as property, and an end to their use in the research, food, clothing, and entertainment industries.
It is one of the few examples of a social movement that was created, and is to a large extent sustained academically, by philosophers"
Animal Rights Activists (ARAs) have commonly used Animal Welfare issues to further the Animal Rights philosophy. To ARAs Animal Welfare is a tool to use to gain an advantage for Animal Rights not to improve the lot for an animal. We've seen ARAs team up with meat processing unions to oppose Live Export. It won't be banned or extinguished, but if it were Meat Worker Unions and ARAs would promptly part company and become mortal enemies. For both, uniting serves a purpose for now.
Don't be fooled. Animal Welfare and Animal Rights are two distinctly different things.
Animal Rights wants all use of animals for meat and other products banned. They use AW as the tool to achieve it.
Here's a simple test.
A ship loaded with a consignment of live sheep leaves an Australian Port, arrives at its overseas destination with ZERO, repeat, ZERO transit deaths. Mortality rate ZERO, repeat ZERO. Great AW outcome, but wait there's more....much. much more. That consignment had ZERO, repeat ZERO ESCAS breaches/leakage or reports. A utterly monumental Animal Welfare Triumph...but ZERO, repeat ZERO heralding of the great AW triumph. Why?
Well may you ask. We're still looking but to date we have found none of the so called advocacy groups mention it and herald the AW triumph. That is to date, ZERO, repeat ZERO mention or celebration of it. Why?
Because they're not Animal Welfare groups. They're Animal Liberation groups that run either overtly or covertly with the philosophy that Animals are people with personage not to be used for food or anything else.
Exporters and producers celebrate the huge AW triumph. Ironically they're more focused on improving Animal Welfare than ARAs.
Those in favour of Animal Welfare are either actively involved in improvements or drop coin into efforts to improve the AW.
ARAs do not get involved with directly helping the improvement of Animal Welfare nor drop on cent into improving AW outcomes. Their money goes into media campaigns to further the philosophy's aim, stopping all animal farming and production.
Yes, the skilled and trained worker loading trucks or ships has greater AW credentials than the ARA groups. ARA's have lost out so much credibility and legitimacy its little wonder we have extremists burning trucks and other appalling criminal activity. Lucky for the extremist, when you're from an Animal Rights Philosophy you can also adopt bogus moral reasons to break laws. Thankfully the courts are not swayed by that bull dust.
Friday, 10 October 2014
The latest ESCAS position. Help stop twisting of truth and lies.
Yes some of the usual suspects and some bright new players in the BS games that surround ESCAS breaches and the current common mistruths and deception floating.
The latest is the horrible aghast were supposed to nearly lose consciousness over is the shocking number of ESCAS breaches that have hit a horrible height of 36 complaints.
When I have challenged that number things got weird. I pointed out there were indeed to date (10/10/2014) exactly 36 complaints lodged since February 2012.
HOWEVER...
We can actually look at the figures properly and get a more accurate view. Before we do, lets just add that even one single confirmed breach is one too many. I think its safe to assume everyone thinks that way. The only positive is, each breach proven is another step closer to greater improvement. So while I would like to see zero breaches, I'd hate to see a single breach with no improvement.
Now the "36 Complaints" broken down, dusted off and properly looked at in context.
Its 36 reports, not 36 breaches. Of those 36 reports there are 8 still pending assessment/investigation.
So seeing we cannot prejudge we'll leave them out of the equation because just because there's a report doesn't mean there was a breach. The history of ESCAS proves that point.
So now we're down to 28 reports in 2 years and 8 months.
Lets go deeper so there's even less deception than the "36 complaints" cry.
Of the 28, there were 11 that were not breaches at all.
So we've gone from 36 complaints down to 17 Breaches...NOT THE SUGGESTED 36
Gee the numbers are less than half the suggested 36.
But like any good Tele-Sales Marketing gimmick..."Wait there's more", well there's more to make the number less.
Yes we're looking at 17 confirmed breaches, but what exactly does that amount to?
Well 17 breaches is indeed 17 too many but how close does that number reflect what happened?
Well glad I asked...cos this is a blog and I have to ask for you.
3 complaints were regarding ONE consignment. Yep its still 3 breaches and even 3 on its own is three too many, however it wasn't 3 serious breaches on 3 separate consignments.
So now we're looking at 15 consignments. What's the lay of the land here then, because 15 is too many also.
Well whether the department classifies it minor, major or critical they're all unwanted, but having said that one involves a confirmed number of 8 sheep definitely breaching ESCAS.
Down to 14 consignments with complaints lodged, investigated and breaches recorded.
One was a breach confirmed on 2718 sheep out of 100,000
Down to 13 consignments with complaints lodged, investigated and breaches recorded.
One was a breach confirmed on 2 sheep with "possibly others" but not confirmed.
Down to 12consignments with complaints lodged, investigated and breaches recorded.
One was a breach of a total 4 cattle confirmed "leaked" or went outside ESCAS path
Down to 11 consignments with complaints lodged, investigated and breaches recorded.
One was a breach of a confirmed 114 sheep "leaked" or went outside ESCAS path
Down to 10 consignments with complaints lodged, investigated and breaches recorded.
One was a breach of a confirmed 9 cattle that "leaked" or went outside the ESCAS path
Now looking bad still, but no where near the 36 complaints nor the suggested millions of sentient beings tortured and destroyed.
We should add at this point the number of Industry "Self Reports"
So far there have been 8 Industry Self Reports. Now keep this in mind, so far on of those was a report where a consignment ended up at 3 abattoirs that were not on the exporter's list of "Approved Supply Chain", Oh but wait there's more. Technically a breach, however the 3 facilities were all adhering to full ESCAS standards even though they weren't on the exporters list. Technically a breach, but not actual physical animal welfare breach at all.
So 4 breaches actually surrounded the fate of 129 head of livestock total.
Then is gets even more interesting. One breach has the added comments that there was no evidence at all of any ESCAS breach right up until the Government of the destination country took control of the consignment and all livestock was lost from the exporters control.
One breach is too many. One animal suffering is too many but never ever let anyone fool you with inferred or inflated claims which are as removed from reality as some of the people peddling them
DON'T BE FOOLED - TEST ALL CLAIMS
LATE EDIT - To check all the complaints and results click here http://www.agriculture.gov.au/biosecurity/export/live-animals/livestock/regulatory-framework/compliance-investigations/investigations-regulatory-compliance
The latest is the horrible aghast were supposed to nearly lose consciousness over is the shocking number of ESCAS breaches that have hit a horrible height of 36 complaints.
When I have challenged that number things got weird. I pointed out there were indeed to date (10/10/2014) exactly 36 complaints lodged since February 2012.
HOWEVER...
We can actually look at the figures properly and get a more accurate view. Before we do, lets just add that even one single confirmed breach is one too many. I think its safe to assume everyone thinks that way. The only positive is, each breach proven is another step closer to greater improvement. So while I would like to see zero breaches, I'd hate to see a single breach with no improvement.
Now the "36 Complaints" broken down, dusted off and properly looked at in context.
Its 36 reports, not 36 breaches. Of those 36 reports there are 8 still pending assessment/investigation.
So seeing we cannot prejudge we'll leave them out of the equation because just because there's a report doesn't mean there was a breach. The history of ESCAS proves that point.
So now we're down to 28 reports in 2 years and 8 months.
Lets go deeper so there's even less deception than the "36 complaints" cry.
Of the 28, there were 11 that were not breaches at all.
So we've gone from 36 complaints down to 17 Breaches...NOT THE SUGGESTED 36
Gee the numbers are less than half the suggested 36.
But like any good Tele-Sales Marketing gimmick..."Wait there's more", well there's more to make the number less.
Yes we're looking at 17 confirmed breaches, but what exactly does that amount to?
Well 17 breaches is indeed 17 too many but how close does that number reflect what happened?
Well glad I asked...cos this is a blog and I have to ask for you.
3 complaints were regarding ONE consignment. Yep its still 3 breaches and even 3 on its own is three too many, however it wasn't 3 serious breaches on 3 separate consignments.
So now we're looking at 15 consignments. What's the lay of the land here then, because 15 is too many also.
Well whether the department classifies it minor, major or critical they're all unwanted, but having said that one involves a confirmed number of 8 sheep definitely breaching ESCAS.
Down to 14 consignments with complaints lodged, investigated and breaches recorded.
One was a breach confirmed on 2718 sheep out of 100,000
Down to 13 consignments with complaints lodged, investigated and breaches recorded.
One was a breach confirmed on 2 sheep with "possibly others" but not confirmed.
Down to 12consignments with complaints lodged, investigated and breaches recorded.
One was a breach of a total 4 cattle confirmed "leaked" or went outside ESCAS path
Down to 11 consignments with complaints lodged, investigated and breaches recorded.
One was a breach of a confirmed 114 sheep "leaked" or went outside ESCAS path
Down to 10 consignments with complaints lodged, investigated and breaches recorded.
One was a breach of a confirmed 9 cattle that "leaked" or went outside the ESCAS path
Now looking bad still, but no where near the 36 complaints nor the suggested millions of sentient beings tortured and destroyed.
We should add at this point the number of Industry "Self Reports"
So far there have been 8 Industry Self Reports. Now keep this in mind, so far on of those was a report where a consignment ended up at 3 abattoirs that were not on the exporter's list of "Approved Supply Chain", Oh but wait there's more. Technically a breach, however the 3 facilities were all adhering to full ESCAS standards even though they weren't on the exporters list. Technically a breach, but not actual physical animal welfare breach at all.
So 4 breaches actually surrounded the fate of 129 head of livestock total.
Then is gets even more interesting. One breach has the added comments that there was no evidence at all of any ESCAS breach right up until the Government of the destination country took control of the consignment and all livestock was lost from the exporters control.
One breach is too many. One animal suffering is too many but never ever let anyone fool you with inferred or inflated claims which are as removed from reality as some of the people peddling them
Look closely and don't be fooled.
Ok now for the humourous part...Now if you're only interested in actual accurate facts stop reading. If you want to see some funny fakery defences of the use of 36 when its actually wrong, well read on.
There were 2 folk I came across who were peddling the "36 complaints" that I engaged with. My hope was to not just challenge their thinking, but get them to challenge their thinking. Here's how it went.
Foil #1 informed me its 36 complaints, is repugnant and despicable number so it stays. I repeated but you've basically included not guilty verdicts amongst the breaches, its quite irregularly, false and misleading. The reply I got was "What don't you understand, its 36 in black and white"
Foil #2 informed me they'd decided 36 stays due to the severity and shocking track record of inspectors not to mention the corruption with the overseeing department who are essentially working for industry. I said its still not 36 breaches, you're including what are essentially "not guilty" verdicts and the ones where there was insufficient evidence supplied by the complainants. Apparently the corruption is so bad "36" stays.
There were 2 folk I came across who were peddling the "36 complaints" that I engaged with. My hope was to not just challenge their thinking, but get them to challenge their thinking. Here's how it went.
Foil #1 informed me its 36 complaints, is repugnant and despicable number so it stays. I repeated but you've basically included not guilty verdicts amongst the breaches, its quite irregularly, false and misleading. The reply I got was "What don't you understand, its 36 in black and white"
Foil #2 informed me they'd decided 36 stays due to the severity and shocking track record of inspectors not to mention the corruption with the overseeing department who are essentially working for industry. I said its still not 36 breaches, you're including what are essentially "not guilty" verdicts and the ones where there was insufficient evidence supplied by the complainants. Apparently the corruption is so bad "36" stays.
I said you can't include complaints that resulted in not guilty and (paraphrasing) I said ' what if I lodge 36 complaints against you for professional medical misconduct when clearly all 36 cannot get a guilty verdict, can I then run around for years say you had 36 complaints for professional misconduct against you?"
Now this point I thought was quite easy to make and easier to understand, because I thought it was obvious both of us knew that Foil#2 wasn't a doctor or even anyway involved with medical practise.
Foil#2's reply was (again paraphrasing) 'makes no sense that argument, I'm not a doctor'
Foil#2's reply was (again paraphrasing) 'makes no sense that argument, I'm not a doctor'
I quickly said I know that, always did know that...the point was 36 complaints are not 36 convictions or 36 breaches, no matter how quickly you say it.
Now, lets get to the alleged corruption.
Foil #2 when pressed referred to this...
Foil #2 when pressed referred to this...
Now I should say from the outset I don't know any investigators involved with ESCAS, but going by that article, no one can say ESCAS is compromised and none is suggested.
DON'T BE FOOLED - TEST ALL CLAIMS
THERE'S SOME REAL ROT IN THE WOODPILE
LATE EDIT - To check all the complaints and results click here http://www.agriculture.gov.au/biosecurity/export/live-animals/livestock/regulatory-framework/compliance-investigations/investigations-regulatory-compliance
To check on how it is ESCAS works click here http://www.agriculture.gov.au/biosecurity/export/live-animals/livestock/regulatory-framework/compliance-investigations
Subscribe to:
Posts (Atom)